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@cwebber That was a great read.

I wish I could think of a good replacement metaphor for “imitation without true understanding that sometimes worked before”.

@marshray @cwebber I had a thread a few weeks ago on this. Sadly no good replacements came up. Sometimes there isn't a good real world metaphor precisely because the bad one was falsified by a self-absorbed twat.

@dalias @marshray @cwebber pseudo-science?

@GavinChait @dalias @marshray @cwebber maybe ritualistic or magical thinking? Superstitious programming might be a good term. I generally use "treating $thing like it's a magic spell" to describe this kind of mentality. If they do the right motions and say the right words, surely they'll get the result they want, even if they don't understand why it worked.

@gregly @rootfake @GavinChait @dalias @cwebber The term “faith-based” is already in widespread use.

@marshray @gregly @rootfake @GavinChait @cwebber Yes, with highly negative connotation, for good reason. So it seems like a decent fit.

@dalias @gregly @rootfake @GavinChait @cwebber If you’re that kind of bigot you might as well stick just with the original term.

@marshray @gregly @rootfake @GavinChait @cwebber "Faith based" is used mainly by fundamentalists trying to subvert secular public services, education, etc. with private ones that push sectarian agenda and discriminate in who they serve.

Considering the term harmful is not bigotry against religious communities but rejection of subjugation of secular government and society by theocrats.

@dalias @marshray @gregly @rootfake @GavinChait @cwebber it's important to note also that there are a very large number of religions that do not have the concept of "faith" as a central pillar. in addition to the other concerns you raise, the term is Christian hegemony because it reinforces the idea that all religion is Christianity with different clothing.

@dalias @marshray @gregly @rootfake @GavinChait @cwebber by all means treat it as a term for something harmful, but the term also causes harm directly through its use, by encouraging an incorrect world view

@dalias @marshray @gregly @rootfake @GavinChait @cwebber "ritualistic" and "magical thinking" are both good, useful terms with clear meanings in this context. while we think that ritual and magic can be good things, if there needs to be a direct replacement we'd lean towards those terms over talking about faith

@dalias @marshray @gregly @rootfake @GavinChait @cwebber oh, oh! "mimicry!"

@dalias @marshray @gregly @rootfake @GavinChait @cwebber honestly though, we've been avoiding "cargo cult" for several years now and... situations where that's the real, most complete and honest description of the fundamental error, just don't seem to come up

@dalias @marshray @gregly @rootfake @GavinChait @cwebber it's almost always a problem with educational resources that have been deliberately structured to make people dependent on them rather than independent (w3schools and stack overflow are both in this category, in our view)

or with malicious omissions in a vendor's marketing, or whatever

@dalias @marshray @gregly @rootfake @GavinChait @cwebber and it doesn't make sense to blame the person falling for those types of exploitation for it. the perpetrators are the ones who know what they did.

@dalias @marshray @gregly @rootfake @GavinChait @cwebber we have it on our personal backlog to write a short piece about how to know what a good learning resource is, heh. it's one of those things we were fortunate enough to learn very young, and we had high standards about it and it's served us very well, and it's come to our attention that most people have never really thought about it

@ireneista @dalias @marshray @gregly @rootfake @cwebber oh, that's cool! I'd be interested in your thoughts. I've been teaching for 25 years, & I create a great deal of education resources, including this masters in data science (https://github.com/whythawk/data-as-a-science) & I always appreciate guidance on how to improve.

@dalias @marshray @gregly @rootfake @GavinChait @cwebber yes, but again see our analysis of how this situation arises

@dalias @marshray @gregly @rootfake @GavinChait @cwebber that does make sense

though, see our other response